EX-SGT.MAJOR ROBERT O.DEAN SPEAKS OUT…
This interview was first published in the UFO Reality Magazine, the December 1996 / January 1997 edition. The interview took place between Ex-Sergeant Major and ufologist, the late Robert (Bob) O.Dean and interviewer, journalist and ufologist Jon King.
For the first time SMYLO are able to bring you this interview taken from print and making it available to those of a digital age.
John: Bob, can you say something about your own personal UFO experiences?
Bob: I’ve had a number of sightings, Jon. The first one was years ago, when I was in the army. The way they reacted on the marines that morning… they debriefed us all day, literally threatened us, swore us all to secrecy. We had seen an object hovering in the sky. It was filmed. It was photographed. At the end of the experience, many of us thought that what we had seen was probably a supersecret US Air Force or US Army experimentation of some kind. Only later did it dawn on me that I had seen a UFO.
I also saw a UFO over SHAPE Headquarters in 1964, an enormous, long cylindrical object just hovering above us – about two or three hundred people all looking up at the same object. It appeared at the noon hour- change of shifts, lunch, people were coming and going; and I remember the General was coming out of his office on his way to his limousine, going home for lunch with his wife. He looked at me, and I looked at him, and we all looked around, and there was a whole bunch of us looking at the same thing; and the only thing I can remember clearly is that it had an enormous purple glow or light around one end of it, but there was no sound, no movement. It just hovered there, this long cylindrical object with a glow around one end.
Jon: What about sightings over US military bases? Is there anything you’ve seen that might indicate some kind of contact between aliens and some aspects of the military and/or government?
Bob: I wish I had some specific photos, dates, names, places to give you. I have a great deal of information, much of it anecdotal, much of it that I’ve received from friends and acquaintances; and much of it that I have put together over the last thirty years.
However, there is one incident that might interest you. Many years ago, a military colleague of mine was ordered to step aboard a captured disc and photograph its interior. The disc was being housed at a certain US Air Force base – my colleague at first felt too uneasy about going aboard this thing, but he was ordered a second time, so he went aboard and took the photographs.
Now this disc was around thirty feet in diameter, but when my colleague stepped aboard he found it was much bigger that that. He said it was like stepping inside a hologram that made the disc seem very large indeed. It made him feel sick too, but maybe that was some kind of radiation effect.
Jon: So there’s no doubt in your mind that the US military are in possession of alien craft?
Bob: No doubt at all.
Jon: What personal evidence have you gained over the years to corroborate these claims?
Bob: Well, I have a library at home. I have a private collection of videos, audios, pictures, slides, motion picture film, that is literally overwhelming. I have photos from military bases taken by military people. I have put together a network of old friends – we call it the ‘Old Boys Network’. There’s roughly two hundred of us in it, and it’s made up of retirees and active duty people. We have admirals, we have generals, we have astronauts who have already committed themselves to us, and we have four cosmonauts who have committed themselves to us. We’re preparing a legislative initiative in Congress.
You see, I’m not able at this moment to lay before you a little body of an extraterrestrial crew member, and I’m not able to show you a ship, although those exist. But what I can do, and what we have done, is put together a body of evidence that would be overwhelming in a court of law. This much evidence, in your country or mine, would convict people of murder, we have so much. But what we’re doing now, what we’re trying to do together as a network of ‘old codgers’ (although some of us are not that old – some are still active in the military) is to put together a legislative initiative that will allow us to have open hearings in Congress, either in the House or the Senate – hopefully both Houses together, a join session – and have open investigative hearings on the issue of the cover-up. Not just on the extraterrestrial issue. Not just on the UFO issue. But the issue of the threat to the Constitutional system.
Jon: Could you say something more about that, Bob?
Bob: Sure. For example, the Black Budget procedures stand at over fifty billion dollars a year in my country. God knows what they might be in Britain. My Constitutional process is in tatters, because we have policy being made by people in the intelligence agencies and the Defense Department who were never elected to do that. So that’s why the hearings are so important, and that’s why all of us are working so hard. If we can fill a hearing room, and I’ve told several senators that we can… I’ve said to them:
“Sir, I can stuff this hearing room with people that will not only tell you the truth, but will tell the American public the truth. You’ve been lied to. You’ve been manipulated. You’re in the hands of, and being controlled by, an elite group of arrogant bureaucrats, to whom the American people have never given power; and we elected you, Senator, and we elected you, Congressman, to do this for us. But these bastards were never elected. They have no authority.”
Jon: You say you have enough evidence that it would convict someone in a court of law. What kind of evidence do you posses?
Bob: Well, as I said, Jon, we’ve got tons of photos, audios, videos etc. We have pieces of metal. I have in my possession pieces of metal from crashed UFOs; and I seldom share that with anyone, because that in itself doesn’t mean anything. I have photographs of UFOs that are so good, and so close, but that doesn’t mean anything, because today technology is such that, with computers, you can make incredible photos. I mean, some of the best UFO photos I’ve ever seen were hub caps thrown into the sky and photographed! And some of the best photographs are not that good. But I have evidence, and my network has evidence, that is literally overwhelming. If we could go in front of the British people, or the American people, with some open hearings on television, with no security regulations, we could blow the lid on this secrecy thing once and for all.
Jon: And that’s what your Congressional Immunity initiative is all about?
Bob: Right. We’re asking Congress to give us a Congressional Immunity for violating our National Security Act. Because to tell my Senate, and my house of Representatives the truth, I have to violate an oath that I swore; and, ah…. there are a few of us who are already violating it, and we’re doing it continually. I point with pride to Gordon Cooper, who is one of our Apollo astronauts. Actually, he was also one of our Mercury/Gemini astronauts. Gordon was in the program from the very beginning. He was one of the original seven, and Gordon recently gave a full hour interview to Discovery TV Channel, and when that’s aired, it’s going to shake up a few people.
Jon: Can you name any other astronauts who might eventually speak out?
Bob: Well, yes. We’ve got another astronaut who is just ready to come out. He’s a delightful, wonderful man… Edgar (ED) Mitchell. Now Ed Mitchell walked the Moon. He knows all of these things- he’s seen them. He knows the lies, the cover-ups. He has now agreed to be part of our Senatorial/Congressional hearing, and we’re trying to get Neil Armstrong too, who I think will also come forward.
Jon: The thing with Neil Armstrong, Bob, is… well, what are we supposed to believe? One minute we hear him say that NASA and the Apollo astronauts are fully aware of the alien presence, the next thing it’s all being denied.
Bob: In private with friends, Neil has said many things. With friends like Maurice Chatelain, for example, who was Director of Communications for the Apollo missions. Maurice is ah… his health is not good now – he’s living in San Diego – but he’s still an old maverick. He really gets angry, and he speaks out from time to time. He’s written a couple of excellent books, and Maurice says that Neil will speak out.
Also, Buzz Aldrin will come forward in time. I mean, Maurice Chatelain has told me that, he says that: “I was standing there in Houston, Mission Control, when Aldrin and Armstrong were walking the moon, and I stood there with everyone in that room, and listened to them excitedly describe what they were seeing.” But of course, the American public never heard any of that.
But Maurice is the man. Maurice is adamant, and he wants so desperately to come forward and tell people the truth. I would love to get Maurice to a hearing before he ‘goes home’. I mean, it’s a joke among us that we’re just one step ahead of the Grim Reaper! I mean, we’re all looking over our shoulders to see how far behind he is! Because our numbers are diminishing.
Jon: have you ever been threatened for speaking out?
Bob: I’ve not had any overt threats, but I’ve faced some subtle intimidation. They don’t so much threaten me for what I’m saying, but they make sure they let me know that they know exactly what I’m doing. I’ve had black helicopters over my house, and it’s no joke. It really happens. I mean, this helicopter that I saw this one time, a year ago, was totally black – black windows, no markings whatsoever. It was hovering just above my eucalyptus tree, literally whipping the top out of my eucalyptus tree, and it was violating practically every regulation in the federal Aviation Administration.
First of all, a black unmarked object is illegal; there’s got to be some registration numbers. Even the military have to show some kind of registration numbers. Anyhow, this thing flew over my house, circled around for ah… ten or twelve minutes, and scared the hell out of my neighbors. I’m sitting inside, reading or writing, when I head it, and I thought, well it’s passing… but it didn’t pass. It just orbited over my house for quite a bit of time, till I ran out and looked up, shook my finger at it, mouthed one or two profane words – which I’m sure they could read, or maybe even hear – and then it flew off.
Jon: Are there any other instances you can think of?
Bob: Well, let me see now… I’ve received a number of interesting phone calls from people who will not identify themselves. I received a call one time after a presentation, where this individual says:
“I was there; you were very impressive. You had a good crowd; they reacted well. But don’t you think you’ve spoken out about this just about enough?”
I said: “Who the hell is this?”
He said: “Never mind who I am. I’m calling to let you know that we believe you’ve been a little too open, spoken too much.”
I said: “Who the hell is this?”
“Never mind,” he said again.
I said: “Never mind hell. Either identify yourself or I’m out of here.”
And he said: “Well, we were present at your presentation, and we just wanted to compliment you on it – it was very well done. But we believe -“
And I said: “Piss off!” And then I hung up.
So, you know, little things like that, and you think to yourself, well, who was that? Was that just a joke? It’s a little intimidating.
Jon: Has anything like that happened in Britain?
Bob: Well, yes, as a matter of fact it has. When I spoke at Leeds two years ago, for example, I got a call from an interesting British chap – beautiful, clipped, lovely, typical, well-educated British accent. Anyhow, this chap identified himself as Mr Sweeting. Now Mr Sweeting had called three times before I went on that day, and had said that it was urgent I return his call before I spoke in Leeds. He was getting everyone all upset. Well, eventually Tony Dodd traced his number to an Agency Headquarters at Harrogate.
And Tony said: “I know who these fellows are. I know exactly what that number complex is.” He said: “It’s part of MI6.” I didn’t know the difference between MI5 and MI^ – but I know that they’re both intelligence operations.
So, I’m still hopeful about meeting Mr Sweeting at some time… but I’ve had a number of experiences like that. I’ve been followed, my phone is tapped, has been for years; and there are many ways to tell that. You know, it’s not just paranoia. I’m a trained military man, and I know when my phone’s being tapped. There are all kinds of little clues to tell you that; but I have not been threatened in an overt way. I’m aware, and I’m enough of a realist to know that if I get too close to a number of things, and I touch upon too many sensitive things, then I could be closed down at any time.
Jon: Closed down?
Bob: I could come down with a bad case of pneumonia, for example, and not make it. I could have a traffic accident. I could even have a coronary. You know, Jon, there are ways today of ‘offing’ someone that are quite simple, very easy. Your agencies and mine could and would do this; and then there’s the old gang at the KGB – the KGB have shared some of their more sinister technology with us.
For instance, there’s a fountain pen I know of, that I’ve seen, and I know that this device is actually a little gas cylinder; and if I had one of these little gas cylinders that the KBG invented, I could go up to you or anyone, and press this little button and squirt this little jet of gas into your face. Within about thirty seconds you would be having a coronary, a massive coronary, and you would die; and they would take you off, and they would conduct an autopsy, and the doctors would say:
“From all we can tell, this man has had a massive heart seizure. there is nothing in the system, nothing in the blood, nothing we can detect that would suggest foul play. Nothing.”
The KGB used this very device against a number of their own agents who had defected. Then, lo and behold, one of the agents that had eliminated a couple of his fellow agents came over to the US and brought one of these little devices with him. Consequently, your government and mine said: “Ah! What a lovely little interesting device!” And then they made some of their own.
Jon: Do you think you are in some way protecting yourself by going public? By becoming more of a public figure?
Bob: I was advised once by an old friend who served with me in South East Asia (and I take great pride in telling you that I worked with intelligence operations, that I worked with the CIA – but I never worked for them – a couple of my old friends are still involved in that area) and he told me that if I’m going to survive this, then I’d damned well better get some exposure real quick; and that what I did. I came out of the closet in a big way, and I’ve been doing it ever since. I think there is a certain security in that. If I were to be bumped off now, it would be a little obvious; but then, if I have a coronary, what can one say? It happens.
Jon: Many former US military or intelligence personnel have also ‘come out of the closet’ in recent years. What do you make of, say, Bob Lazar and Bill Cooper, for instance?
Bob: I know Bob and I know Bill, and I like them both. Bill is just a big hairy likeable guy, married with a couple of kids. He’s very friendly, but I disagree with him on about 75% of what he says, and I’ve told him so. I think Bill is actually playing into their hands with paranoia. I believe he’s been fed some disinformation, purposeful disinformation, and I think that he’s passed it on, believing it himself. Now I could be wrong, maybe he’s right, but I cannot make myself believe that.
Jon: How do your conclusions differ from Bill Cooper’s?
Bob: I’m one of the few, Jon, who have looked at this thing with extremely broad historical perspective, and I take certain pride in that. My view, historically, covers five, ten thousand years, for God’s sake. In my slide show I have printings from the mountains in southern France and Spain, where our Neanderthal and early CroMagnon ancestors were drawing UFOs. I’ve looked at it in a much broader perspective than Bill, and I’ve concluded as the SHAPE study did, that if they had wanted to turn us into dog food, it would have been so simple at any time in our past. If that’s what their intentions had been, it would have all be over by now.
When people talk about ‘alien invasion’, as Bill does, I mean… it’s all gone on for so long now. If they had wanted to invade us, they would have done so a long time ago.
Jon: Speaking of ‘alien invasion’, Bob… what has come up an awful lot lately is the appearance in our skies of a black triangular craft. Can you say something about this?
Bob: A few years ago they were all over Belgium
Bob: …And a few years before they were all over our Hudson Valley. Now they’re all over Britain! When they were in the US they were hovering over our atomic power plants, over the Hudson River, over the freeways, beaming lights down on the freeways. We had one case where at least four hundred people stopped their cars and got out along one of the major US freeways, and just stood there and looked at this thing.
It was up there for, oh, forty, fifty minutes, and it was gigantic. It was triangular, and it had lights on each corner and a big red light in the middle. The red light in the middle had been seen from time to time to detach, fly around wherever, and then go back and re-attach itself, just like in Belgium. Now would would have thought that would have been on the front page of every damned newspaper in the United States, but you know it was not. It was not on the evening news – you had to dig for it, yet here we had thousands of people who had seen this thing.
Jon: There seems to be a similar situation in Mexico, where literally tens of thousands of people, including police officers, city mayors, air traffic controllers, and even the Mexican Government are seeing UFOs, but very little media coverage reaches the Western World. Is it possible there’s some kind of D-Notice on the Mexican situation?
Bob: Well, yes, that could well be true, but the Mexicans themselves are very honest about it. The universities there are studying it. Government officials are pleasantly bemused by it; but getting they store out of Mexico, on your evening news and mine at home, is like pulling teeth. The only way you’ll see any of it is on programs like Sightings or Encounters, but these shows are rare. I commend them, I’ve spoken to a number of their producers and I say: “Look guys, keep it up.” I’ve spoken to the producer of The X-Files – we have sort of a friendship – and I said: “You’re not kidding me. Don’t tell me that you’re getting all these story-ideas out of your own head. You’re getting some input from someone on some of these ideas, because I know how accurate they are.”
Jon: So how do you see the whole thing unfolding? How do you see the future?
Bob: I believe we have reached a point in our history where we have two choices, and that’s about it. One choice is oblivion, and I believe that’s probably happened, hundreds if not millions of times in the universe. When intelligent races reach that moment , that crucial, delicate moment, they either make it, or they don’t; and I’m sure there are cases where they haven’t made it.
Jon: You see that as a possibility here? Now?
Bob: Yes I do. We are either going to go into oblivion, and become an interesting footnote in some galactic archive or dictionary or something, or we have a glorious future where we can really become what we are intended to be, what we have the capability to be; and that is almost a God-like species, a creature that will be as different from what we are at this present moment as we are from the old Neanderthal. I see it when I look into the eyes of young children. That’s when I see the future. I see brightness, light, curiosity, intelligence, spirit. Now that is what I believe in my heart we will become.
Being a cynic, and also being a visionary and a dreamer, I like to end all of my presentations with a quote from Leo Tolstoy; and I like to point out to people, having told them a few blunt things, a few frightening things, that we’re going to be in for some difficult times ahead; but I leave them with this thought:
There is something within the human spirit, a light that will not go out, no matter how dark the world becomes. I believe that to be so; and in all my heart and my soul I pray that the human race meets its destiny, goes out there, takes its place and becomes the glorious being that we’re capable of being. I believe in my heart that we will make it. I must believe it. If I can’t hold that hope in my heart, then I want out.Leo Tolstoy
But as Tolstoy said: “That light will not go out, no matter how dark the world becomes.” Frankly, that’s why I was pleased to give you some time this afternoon, Jon, because I see in you a man who understands exactly what I’m saying.
Jon: Thank you, Bob.
Bob: Thank you, my friend.